May 6th. 2009 minutes
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MEMBERS PRESENT: |
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Mel Lisher, Tom Cox, Daniel Beebe, Tim Kaufman and Verlon Myers
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MEMBERS ABSENT:
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BJ LaBounty and Russell Brickell |
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STAFF PRESENT: |
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Phil Burke |
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PUBLIC PRESENT: |
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Eric Shrock, Frank Rhodes, Mary Smith, Chad Smith, Bobbie Flory, Lee Queen, and Rod Laing |
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A quorum had been established and the meeting came to order at 6:02 pm. Beebe made a motion to retain Russell Brickell as Co-chairman, Cox seconded the motion; the motion passed unanimously.
Nominations from the floor for chairman were Beebe. Nominations ceased and a motion was made by Cox to elect Beebe as Chairman, Lisher seconded the motion; the motion passed unanimously.
Newly elected Chairman Beebe commanded the agenda from this point. He took this opportunity to welcome newly appointed member of the Board, Verlon Myers.
Minutes
The minutes of the March 4th, 2009 meeting had been provided to all members. Beebe made a motion to accept the minutes, Cox seconded the motion; the motion passed unanimously.
Correspondence
The only letter was the Mayor’s notification of appointment of Verlon Myers and re-appointment of Daniel Beebe.
Unfinished Business
None pending.
New Business
Beebe recognized the public input as the next line item to discuss. He posed a question to staff on how best to proceed with comments from the audience.
Staff responded that the input is to be heard tonight but typically wouldn’t be discussed by the Board at this meeting. No previous order had been determined, therefore they may take turns.
First up was Bobbie Flory representing the LHBA.
Ms. Flory had made written comment to the Board in October of 2008 regarding the same issues she will speak about this evening. She is concerned by the expansion of AFCI’s to all additional areas not currently required by the 2005 NEC Flory outlined some points in the information she had obtained from the NFPA regarding the lack of a cost benefit study on the AFCI expansion. Additional information she had obtained cited only 4% of residential fires were caused by fixed wiring. Costs relayed to her by local distributors for the wholesale price of a combination AFCI breaker is approximately $56 dollars each. The LHBA is troubled by the increase in costs that this code requirement would add to single family housing prices here in Lawrence. Flory commented that nationally the increase would equate to almost 2 billion dollars for a 39 million dollar problem.
One other issue Flory would like to discuss is the tamper resistant receptacles. She would rather not see a blanket approach on where they are installed. The LHBA would rather see them installed in areas frequented by children or perhaps some type of height restriction on where they are required. Flory has spoken with a JOCO code official and he stated they are delaying adoptions until 2011 to see if these requirements remain.
Lee Queen, Edmondson Construction
Mr. Queen began by thanking the Board members for serving; he was a member of another board for 7 years and knows the amount of time necessary to serve effectively. Queen would also like to talk about AFCI expansion, initially his intent was to comment on tamper resistant receptacles, but believes the small cost difference is worth the safety. Queen told of difficulties he has been having with the combination type of AFCI’s now required under the 2005 NEC. He has had to change the AFCI’s out four times in a new home; he is experiencing problems keeping these combination breakers from nuisance tripping. In most instances the home has been unoccupied with no loads on these circuits. He added that these issues are now just isolated to the bedrooms and is worried that when almost the whole house would be connected to these breakers. He doesn’t think they are working properly, they may be too sensitive. He recommends deleting these requirements until such a time they are proven to work correctly. Queen stated several local jurisdictions have opted out these new requirements. He went on to state that for another $1,000 dollars the homebuyer is entitled to $1,000 dollars worth of extra protection, currently Queen doesn’t see that.
Beebe asked Queen how he knew that they weren’t working; maybe they are tripping because a drywall screw or a siding nail had penetrated the cable.
Queen said there are four AFCI’s in this home and they have all tripped randomly.
Lisher commented that he installed some recently and the alarm clock was setting them off. Once they unplugged the clock, the breakers would reset.
Frank Rhodes, Electrical Contractor
Rhodes has spent over two hours on the phone with the technical department of a breaker manufacturer discussing the issues he has been having. The technical representative stated because of industry standards they had to set the sensitivity very low. The technical representative said the homeowner would have to get familiar with their panel and learn how to reset these combination breakers as needed. In a new house the homeowner should have breakers that work. Rhodes has over 50 combination breakers installed in the field and has had issues with at least 25% of those installed. He has changed them out to a standard AFCI and has no tripping issues.
Lisher added that some manufacturers suggested they don’t put fans on the AFCI circuits.
Beebe stated he didn’t think you want homeowners spending “face time” with their electrical panels.
Eric Shrock, Electrical Contractor
Mr. Shrock hasn’t had tripping issues with the combination AFCI’s, but doesn’t support the expansion of them into additional areas of the dwelling. He thinks additional loads encountered in all the other rooms could add to nuisance problems. Shrock is also apprehensive about existing structures when circuits are added and required to be brought up to code. He’s unsure why some rooms are being left out just because they may have GFCI protection, such as kitchens, garages, and unfinished basements. Shrock spoke about the heat generated by the AFCI and with a possibility of 20 plus breakers being of this design when applying the 2008 NEC, what problems this might cause. He doesn’t think it has been completely tested and put through all the tests necessary to ensure safe and reliable operation.
Chad Smith, Electrical Contractor
Smith stated they have had problems with AFCI’s, such as with laptops and vacuums. He said they are not predictable as when or why they may trip. Smith is bothered with the expansion and believes that homeowners will only put up with the nuisance for awhile. Once they no longer believe the electrician is credible, they’ll take the matter into their own hands. They will go to the home improvement store and buy a breaker that fits and costs the least, it won’t be an AFCI. He is also concerned with retrofitting existing homes and the costs associated with their installation. Smith is also worried about the cost of tamper resistant receptacles. He has heard of issues of homeowners making changes themselves in one local jurisdiction that has already adopted the 2008 NEC.
Shrock had a question regarding another change with the single receptacle in lieu of GFCI protection. He wondered why the Board chooses to take those items off the GFCI.
Beebe asked for some clarification to fully understand his question. Beebe was one person on the Board that believed this to be a solution to a possible problem. He thought these locations were places where very limited contact would occur. The majority of the reading he has done on GFCI protection, points to the intent of protecting a person while they are using a particular appliance. Beebe doesn’t think these areas offer that risk.
Shrock asked if they were being removed because of nuisance tripping. He presented the scenario of a refrigerator being installed in a basement family room, and under the 2008 NEC it may be on an AFCI, the same nuisance tripping could occur.
Some discussion began about where and where not AFCI protection would extend to under the 2008 NEC and when a kitchen isn’t a family room bar area. One person thought the exception by the Board could prevent some problems when a GFCI trips and isn’t noticed until a freezer full of meat is spoiled.
Beebe added that many folks don’t carry house keys; they rely on the automatic garage door to enter their home. He has issues with nuisance tripping of both the AFCI’s and GFCI’s.
Staff commented that the Board made the amendment to be applicable to unfinished areas, although other circumstances will come up, this was the original intent.
Smith brought up some concerns when the AFCI’s are applied to multi-family occupancies. When multiple units start having issues it could be very costly to him during the warranty period. Smith is troubled with what this can do to a company’s reputation after repeated trips.
A discussion started about information from other jurisdictions in regards to these combination units in whole dwelling use. No one had actual reports from these areas.
Beebe is assured this isn’t the last this issue will be discussed by the Board. In his experience it seems to be following what GFCI’s did in the earlier years.
Rhodes commented that vacuums cause many problems from the commentator to brush arcing. He was told by a breaker manufacturer this would do it every time. Rhodes asked the Board to talk with more electricians regarding this issue than what has shown up this evening. Rhodes is very disappointed that this few persons showed an interest to come to the meeting.
A general discussion about testing methods used to isolate problems on AFCI protected circuits began. The use of standard VOM (volt-ohm meters) and connecting large 120 volt loads such as drills have been utilized. One member didn’t think using anything less than a megger (mega-ohm meter) would have decent results.
Shrock asked if a discussion occurred among the Board about existing homes and when circuits are added that require AFCI protection. He also inquired how close the Board to adopting the new code is.
Staff added that currently circuits added to bedrooms would require AFCI protection under the current code and these would have to be the combination type. The expansion is currently in draft form only along with all these other changes. The Board typically takes the input from tonight and would discuss that at the next meeting in June. The Board is only allowed to discuss these items at the meeting or with someone else that is not a Board member. If the combination type of AFCI’s are an issue the Board would have to recommend an amendment to City Commission for adoption. It is completely within the Board’s authority to do that. Staff commended the Board on their individual research to prepare for each meeting. The 2008 NEC has been a difficult review with all the changes.
Beebe said further discussions were pending on the AFCI issue. He said for him the cost issue doesn’t matter, but if they won’t function we need to have more discussion.
Queen commented that Beebe should be concerned with cost. He said right now the Lawrence builders construct the safest houses around. Queen added we have an affordable housing crisis not an affordable housing problem.
Beebe first concern is with the protection afforded to people, but if they don’t function that is another issue.
Queen stated we should be putting them in the houses that are burning down, not the safest houses in town.
Rod Laing, Rod Laing Construction
He stated the approach of a wise person is to see what happens and make decisions based on the outcome. Laing equated the AFCI issue to that of new software that has many problems when it is first released. He added that with people losing their homes the extra money may be better spent on older homes where these fires are occurring. He added in closing that sitting back and waiting would be most prudent. Currently not many homes are being constructed; it’s not like were missing out on a big rush. The amendment can always be added in at a later time when it is proven the AFCI’s are working properly. Laing had bought an older home when he first moved to town and knows the issues with existing homes; it had a fire due to a faulty floor furnace.
Beebe called for any other public input to be placed on the record.
The audience thanked the Board for their time and appreciated them listening.
Adjournment
Cox made a motion to adjourn, seconded by Beebe; motion passed unanimously and the meeting was adjourned at 7:00 pm.
Respectfully submitted,
Phil Burke, Secretary