October 15, 2007 minutes
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MEMBERS PRESENT: |
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Jim Sparkes, Bryan Wyatt, Kevin Chaney, Gary Mohr, Mark Jarboe |
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MEMBERS ABSENT: |
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None |
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GUEST PRESENT: |
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Steven Watts, Bill Schweitzer, IAPMO, Steve Watson, Aquila, Chuck Hoag, Aquila |
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STAFF PRESENT:
EX-OFFICIO: |
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Barry Walthall, Building Safety Manager
Patrick O’Brien, Mechanical Inspector |
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Meeting called to order at 6:35 p.m.
Review and approve minutes from September 17, 2007
After review, Mohr made a motion to approve the minutes. Wyatt seconded the motion. Pass 5-0.
Review and approve minutes from September 21, 2007
After review, Wyatt requested on page 4 at the bottom of the page be changed to more reflect what was said between him and Torres when Wyatt asked Torres if he would tell the Commission that he supported the board and Torres replied that if asked, he said he would.
Staff replied the changes would be made.
Mohr made a motion to approve the minutes as changed. Seconded by Wyatt. Pass 5-0.
Discussion of vent-free gas heaters
Chaney opened the floor for public comment and requested that comments be limited to six or seven minutes.
Steven Watts began by stating there may have been a misunderstanding on what was allowed and not allowed. Watts had a conversation with Chaney about what was allowed and Chaney communicated to him that Aquila does not allow the vent free heaters. He then had a conversation with Chuck Hoag from Aquila who indicated that in the past they prohibited vent free gas heaters, but recently adopted the International standard that allows vent free gas heaters. He stated as utility prices continue to rise, homeowners are doing what they can to reduce their utility bills however they can. Using the vent free heater makes sense because they are energy efficient and homeowners do not have to heat their entire home and could use the heaters for supplemental heat. He stated he uses zoned cooling and would like to also use zoned heating as the International code allows; he hopes the board can realize the standard that was in place in the past may not be consistent to today’s standards that do allow for the vent free gas heaters.
Chuck Hoag commented Aquila did not adopt the International Fuel Gas Code, they have provided training to their employees under the International codes. Aquila follows the National Fuel Gas Code but they typically adhere to what local jurisdictions enforce and have no particular stance on which code is best. He stated Aquila’s role is to be an agent to whatever code the City of Lawrence adopts. Hoag also stated there was a member on the Mechanical board a few years ago that was an employee of Aquila and probably told the board members the vent free heaters are not allowed by the gas company.
Jarboe asked Hoag if the National Fuel Gas Code allowed the vent free gas heaters.
Hoag responded the National Fuel Gas Code allows them in limited use, but Aquila does not allow them since the current City of Lawrence code does not allow them.
Sparkes asked Watts if he was planning on installing a new unit with all the safety devices such as an oxygen depletion device or an older unit that may not have the safety devices included.
Watts stated he was planning on purchasing a new unit that would have all the modern safety devices included on the unit. It would have the ability to turn itself off if the oxygen level reached an unsafe level.
Sparkes asked if that is what he had right now.
Watts stated he has not purchased one yet because nobody will install one since the code does not allow it.
Chaney asked Hoag if he had any experience on the safety of the vent free units in areas that do allow then.
Hoag responded he was not aware of all the intricacies of the safety device on the vent free units. He stated the units are safe if they are installed and used properly.
Sparkes had a concern that Watts was going to close off the rest of his house and heat just one room.
Watts responded he would not be closing off his house but he planned to use a space heater in one room but the room would not be closed off from the rest of the house.
He plans on having zoned heating as an option by utilizing safe and modern heaters that are being used across the country. He pointed out to the board when pilot lights go out on gas cooking stoves; there is not a safety device that will shut off the supply of gas that prevents natural gas from entering the house. He stated there should be some faith in the technology that has been developed to keep these space heaters safe.
Schweitzer clarified according to NFPA 54; vent free space heaters are allowed in bedrooms but are limited to 10,000 btu’s and 6,000 btu’s in bathrooms. The units can not be used as the sole source of heat for a house.
Staff stated research was conducted and discovered the Consumer Products Safety Commission mandated all vent free gas space heaters be equipped with oxygen depletion safety devices in 1980 and American National Standards Institute (ANSI) required the use of the oxygen depletion sensors shortly after. Staff explained to the board how the oxygen depletion sensor was part of the pilot and operated similar to a flame sensor and when the oxygen level is reduced, the flame will lift off the pilot and will shut off the supply of gas to the unit.
Jarboe asked Hoag if the only time carbon monoxide (CO) is produced is when a gas appliance is not burning efficiently.
Steve Watson replied there is a chance a unit could produce CO even when burning at peak efficiency.
Wyatt stated he has tested appliances that were burning efficiently that will still produce CO. Wyatt stated he has been in houses where occupants have removed safety devices from water heaters to get them to work properly because the pilots would not remain lit. He stated houses are being built tighter and his concern would be if there was an infant in the room and since their bodies are much smaller, that a safe level of CO for an adult is not the same as an infant. He stated he does not know if he would feel comfortable in allowing these units without assurances from manufacturers that they are safe even for infants in the room.
Chaney stated he was on the Mechanical Board when Bill Parish was on the board and he is the one that said the gas company would not allow the vent free gas heaters. Without further information from an expert, he would not be willing to change his mind on the issue.
Sparkes stated he understands where Watts is coming from. His concern is if the vent free gas space heaters are allowed. What would be in place to stop a homeowner from purchasing a vent free heater from a garage sale that was 35 years old with no safety devices and installing the unit in his home. He asked where the liability would be on that type of scenario.
Watts stated the liability would go back on the person that installed it.
Chaney responded the board needs to regulate the life and safety of citizens.
Watts stated tobacco smoke contributes a considerable amount of CO into the air and wouldn’t that be a life safety issue also.
Chaney responded tobacco smoke is not a matter of this board. He requested Watts to hold his comments while the board discusses the matter among themselves.
Watts commented Chaney was arrogant.
Chaney again asked Watts to hold comments while the board discussed the issue and requested that he not be rude.
Watts responded to Chaney and requested he not be rude.
Wyatt moved to close public comment. Seconded by Mohr. Pass 5-0.
Mohr stated when you are dealing with an appliance that burns carbon based fuel; you are going to have carbon monoxide. His concern would be the oxygen depletion sensor operating properly. The reason you are getting the claim of high efficiency is because all the heat stays in the room including all the products of combustion. His concern would be for the elderly where they may close up there house for days on end and not leave and the house would build up with the products of combustion. His concern would be the safety of the heaters even with the regulations in the International Fuel Gas Code.
Sparkes asked staff about getting a manufacturers representative to the next board meeting that could answer the questions and concerns the board members have.
Staff responded they would work on getting some kind of a rep to the next board meeting.
Chaney asked if the vent free gas logs were allowed.
Staff responded they are allowed if the damper is blocked open to allow venting of the gas logs. Staff stated in the manufacturers instructions from Rinnai; the first few pages included many safety precautions for operating the units.
Mohr asked if these vent free units would require a permit for installation.
Staff responded a permit would be required for the gas line and since the unit is regulated by the code, the unit itself would also require a permit.
Mohr confirmed an inspection would give the chance to verify the unit was installed in a room that had the volume to accommodate the unit. Would there be a possibility a plumbing contractor could install the unit and not acquire the proper permits.
Staff responded there was a concern with work without permit on all installations.
Chaney stated he would be concerned if plumbing contractors were installing the vent free units and not taking into account the volume of the room when running the gas line.
Chaney made a motion to make request for a manufacturing representative to attend a meeting to answer questions and to check with other jurisdictions to see how they handle the vent free units. Seconded by Sparkes. Pass 5-0.
Schweitzer stated he had a vent free unit he installed in a sunroom and has not had any problems with it.
Staff asked Hoag if a gas company technician came upon an unsafe condition, they would have the authority to turn off the gas.
Hoag responded they would turn off the supply to the unit and cap the gas line.
Staff stated there would be effort to have the requested information ready for the next meeting.
Next meeting will be on November 12, 2007.
Schweitzer took an opportunity to thank the board for their support of IAPMO and stated he would still be available to answer any questions they might have.
Motion to adjourn made by Chaney, seconded by Wyatt, pass 5-0. Meeting adjourned at 7:12 p.m.